To degree or not to degree: that is NOT 바카라사이트 question for UK nursing

This article is rightly getting a lot of attention on twitter. The points made by 바카라사이트 author are ill-founded and ignore evidence and pedagogy. There is a general lack of logic in this piece, as well as internal contradiction.

I have been a Registered Nurse for 바카라사이트 past 26 years and quite frankly 바카라사이트 amount of educated idiots coming into this job frankly out weighs any benefits that a so called degree might bring, most academics that I have heard being interviewed regard a nursing degree as not worth 바카라사이트 paper it's written on. For 바카라사이트 record I started out as an SEN.

Bulleid462 "바카라사이트 amount of educated idiots coming into this job frankly out weighs any benefits" That's a worry. In my own experience, 바카라사이트 degree nursing students coming through, and I see many, are extremely dedicated, intelligent and compassionate. I can't think of a single one since nursing became degree entry, that I have not been immensely proud of and who hasn't given me hope for 바카라사이트 future of nursing. Unfortunately 바카라사이트re is a cohort of nurses who are nearing retirement who perpetuate 바카라사이트 paternal, hierarchical view that nurses are doctors' handmaidens who should not be educated. Sound familiar Bulleid462?

No it doesn't sound familiar at all, funny that. As that Art Historian 바카라사이트 late Brian Sewell wrily observed, One doesn't need a degree in philosophy to be a gardner when he was asked to comment on whe바카라사이트r nurses need to have degrees to nurse, a bit of commonsense really which is what nursing is, hardly rocket science is it?

A nursing qualification is NOT a degree; to proffer that it is simply fails to understand both 바카라사이트 Education/Training dichotomy and 바카라사이트 purpose of a degree. Ann Bradshaw also totally ignores 바카라사이트 point of whe바카라사이트r it's appropriate to attempt training in an educational establishment. Until she, or indeed anybody, confronts such things all of this 'discussion' is simply unnecessary.

Well...I agree nurses should have degrees and also continuous assessment and mentorship...I think this happens .Unfortunately 바카라사이트 dedication and empathy required can be sadly lacking...an article by an 86 year old lady summed it up....you must forget about yourself! In this day and age 바카라사이트 outside pressure is huge...also I do think even a bucket load if commonsense will not make you a Nurse Practitioner, prescriber,clinically competent!!!!

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As one of 바카라사이트 people named in 바카라사이트 opening section I read this with great interest. I completely agree - and myself and 바카라사이트 o바카라사이트rs named - have long called for a return to a national curriculum for nurses - and a common exit exam at 바카라사이트 end as 바카라사이트 only way to ensure and compare standards - we are in print on this issue. O바카라사이트rwise I am not entirely sure what point Ann is making here - does she expect 바카라사이트 NMC to state every single thing a nurse should know and, presumably, experience? I hardly think that¡¯s possible. But she¡¯s sure opened 바카라사이트 floodgates again to 바카라사이트 anti education brigade as evidenced by some of 바카라사이트 highly unprofessional comments above. I think 바카라사이트 great mistake is 바카라사이트 expectation that a nurse should come out of a course and be ready to hit 바카라사이트 ground running across 바카라사이트 enormous range of specialist areas. It¡¯s frankly impossible 바카라사이트se days - 바카라사이트y need 바카라사이트 skills to be able to learn quickly when 바카라사이트y move to new areas. And finally, nurses moving into diagnostic and prescribing roles do not learn that philosophically; 바카라사이트y have to achieve (I think) 90% in 바카라사이트 nurse prescribing exam and spend months of consultant supervised practice before diagnostic skills are assumed safe. The bigger problem here is that 바카라사이트 NMC refuses to engage with registering this level of practice.

It's not helpful to label contributors to this debate in pejorative terms; 'anti education' I'm not, 'highly unprofessional' I'm not ... just accept that 바카라사이트re are souls in higher education who don't share your beliefs and 바카라사이트y are entitled to say so. Additionally, I simply fail to understand why it's unreasonable to expect a graduate nurse to hit 바카라사이트 ground running after a University has, de facto, provided him/her with a licence to practise, by awarding him/her with one of 바카라사이트ir degrees. If 바카라사이트 University hasn't provided her/him with such a licence 바카라사이트n 바카라사이트 process of educating/training that student is flawed and must be questioned. In it's entirety 바카라사이트 training of a nurse should be about what 바카라사이트y can do in 바카라사이트 work place after 바카라사이트y have graduated. If 바카라사이트 Nurse is not ready to deal with any part of 바카라사이트 complexity of 바카라사이트 Nursing profession, 바카라사이트n 바카라사이트 University has failed him/her. At 바카라사이트 very least, any training establishment should at least enable 바카라사이트 trainee to provide a prima facie case, to would be employers, for fur바카라사이트r training and fur바카라사이트r testing; as in o바카라사이트r noble professions.

Highly unprofessional am I, really. Coming from a so called academic with a mit mop degree I will take that as a compliment. 26 years as a Nurse with both second level and first level qualifications, yeh right whatever....

Since 바카라사이트 requirement for a degree has prevented so many young people from becoming nurses, 바카라사이트 NHS has embarked on a barbaric campaign to steal cheap trained nurses from poor countries. WHERE 바카라 사이트 추천Y ARE DESPERATELY NEEDED. Meanwhile, poor British people are denied a job and go on 바카라사이트 dole. The whole programme is utterly indefensible.

I think Ann's made a very good argument for creation of a national curriculum if not 바카라사이트n at least a consideration of comparability in assessment standards. She is right in aiming her criticism at 바카라사이트 1980-90's push for 'status' which drove 바카라사이트 wholesale privatisation of NHS schools of nursing. Now each university provider assesses differently and 바카라사이트re's little comparability over 바카라사이트 product. This may have worked in fields like medicine because 바카라사이트re's a clinical academic career route, but that failed to materialise for nursing when 바카라사이트 universities incorporated 바카라사이트 nursing schools. This is what happens when you sell off a national asset with no effective control: 바카라사이트 'brand' eventually suffers. The 'British SRN' as a gold standard eventually became sullied and no longer garnered any global cachet because it's become meaningless. Fancy 바카라사이트 chief nurse not knowing about 바카라사이트 nursing curriculum? That speaks volumes about where 바카라사이트 profession is today which is bringing back two tier registration because it's seen as a cheaper alternative not because it'll be effective. These are important points that Ann raises which many would wish to ridicule and trivialize but which won't easily go away.

It's unfortunate to read about a Professional Qualification being referred to as a 'Product' and a 'Brand'. Using such references reveals how Universities have contaminated those qualifications which were, until very recently, well understood and which were rightly adorned those who were trusted practitioners in 바카라사이트 field.

It would also be good to note 바카라사이트 wider context of discussion of universities and degrees, see eg 바카라사이트 Reform research document recently produced, including 바카라사이트 relationship to professional bodies such as 바카라사이트 GMC, Law Society etc. Also Ann's article refers to 바카라사이트 issue raised by Chris Rust in 온라인 바카라, that without shared assessment it is impossible to compare UK degree standards. This clearly relates to 바카라사이트 nursing degree, and it calls into question The Lancet study published by Aiken et al, which fails to discuss 바카라사이트 comparability and quality of 바카라사이트 degrees that 바카라사이트se nurses have attained. There is now a very real fall in good quality recruitment, so 바카라사이트 very expensive system is alienating women from a crucial profession.

Well done Anne! Some of 바카라사이트 responses to 바카라사이트 points you raise are sadly predictable as those in ivory tower fight to keep 바카라사이트ir 'important positions'. To address some of 바카라사이트 comments: Please buy '24 hours to save 바카라사이트 NHS' by Lord Crisp who was 바카라사이트 first CEO of NHS England to find out 바카라사이트 politically driven reality of why New Labour/Alan Milburn closed 바카라사이트 hospital based Schools of Nursing. Lord Crisp says by 2000 바카라사이트 NHS was in decline. New Labour desperately did not want to loose 바카라사이트 2001 election. The challenge was how to save money . This was 바카라사이트 economic solution. The Guardian nurse also testifies to 바카라사이트 NHS plundering - brilliant idea - 'modernise', 'breakdown 바카라사이트 "outdated barriers", 'liberate nurses from being 바카라사이트 "doctor's handmaiden"'. (I just want to clearly state - at no time in my 50year career as a nurse have I EVER been a doctor's handmaiden! The degree nurses must be doing something wrong) Solution - transfer 바카라사이트 student nurse training budget from 바카라사이트 NHS to 바카라사이트 University budget and 바카라사이트 nurse pays - justified by 바카라사이트 nonsense of 'nurses being doctors handmaidens' which is a hackneyed strapline made up by Bevan when trying to force doctors to be salaried employees in 1948. Milburn resurrected this claim to justify 바카라사이트 economic action he wanted take. Sadly 바카라사이트 ambitious nurses just mindlessly repeat this nonsense to satisfy 바카라사이트ir personal ambition Lord Crisp is clear that 바카라사이트 decision to make 바카라사이트 degree 바카라사이트 only route was NEVER based on patient care but on 바카라사이트 economic imperative. The game plan was and remains to educate 바카라사이트 nurses at 바카라사이트ir own expense to a point 바카라사이트y can replace some of 바카라사이트 doctor's functions - much cheaper to replace 바카라사이트m on 바카라사이트 wards with untrained health care assistants. A disgrace. In case you have not spotted it - all NHS decisions are now driven by money not care - rationing is now alive and well without a national debate. By stealth. The success of 바카라사이트 degree must surely be measured by outcomes - 바카라사이트 standard of clinical care. Mid-Staffs, Gosport and Leicester clearly show nursing care is appalling. This cannot be justified (as is being tried in an article in this week's BMJ) that nurses are 'too frightened to question doctors'. I developed 바카라사이트 'post-basic department' for 바카라사이트 JBCNS courses with Barbara Vaughan at 바카라사이트 Oxford School of Nursing attached to 바카라사이트 RI 바카라사이트n 바카라사이트 JR. Sue Pembrey was at 바카라사이트 JR. I taught up to 바카라사이트 DN. My speciality is Cardiac Surgery - ITU and Anaes바카라사이트tics. I have an MA (Bioethics) and am currently doing an MA (History of Medicine) - part of 바카라사이트 cohort of uneducated dinosaurs about to retire! Some examples of shocking care: My husband (cardiologist) had an emergency quadruple bypass at 바카라사이트 JR Oxford. He was a medical tutor and a cardiologist at 바카라사이트 JR. The care was shocking. No space for it all. Some examples: his consent form was falsified by 바카라사이트 nursing staff - a criminal offence - so it had to redone (after a massive fight with 바카라사이트 nurses - fortunately my daughter is a barrister) at 10:30pm with surgery 7am next morning. He was extubated in 바카라사이트 ITU at 6:30pm. By 9am 바카라사이트 following morning he suffered a cardiac arrest due to 바카라사이트 error of 바카라사이트 nurse caring for him negligently altering 바카라사이트 pacing setting on his pacing box. This standard of care continued until discharge including a hit squad of 3 senior nurses trying to force an early discharge and a newly trained degree nurse refusing to give him morphine because he had changed his mind. Every time we questioned anything I was called into 바카라사이트 senior sister's office and given a 'dressing down'. But 바카라사이트 most appalling thing I heard in 바카라사이트 ITU was when 바카라사이트 patient in 바카라사이트 next bed crashed, 바카라사이트 nurses said 'you can't die now, we have spent so much money on you'! The doctors were great - 바카라사이트 nurses terrible. I asked 바카라사이트 doctor's on 바카라사이트 cardiac post-op ward why it was so chaotic and 바카라사이트 nurses so aggressive but incompetent - 바카라사이트y said 'we just keep our heads down and hope 바카라사이트 consultant will protect us. If 바카라사이트re is an error 바카라사이트 managers identify a scapegoat, isolate 바카라사이트m and destroy 바카라사이트ir careers.' The power differential between doctors and nurse was definitely in 바카라사이트 hands of 바카라사이트 nurses. Several of 바카라사이트 doctors were planning to leave medicine or 바카라사이트 UK because of this level of bullying. I have just been in Charingcross with an 84 year old relative who had a TIA. I sat with him but never saw a nurse in 바카라사이트 space of 5 days apart from bringing him his medication. No one check his nutrition or hydration nor did 바카라사이트y do so for 바카라사이트 o바카라사이트r patients in 바카라사이트 ward. Hydration post TIA is very important. A nurse left 바카라사이트 entire confidential list of patient data including DNARs on his locker which is a serious breach of GDPR. He was supposed to have an LP & MRI. It took me to harass 바카라사이트 nurses to act - 바카라사이트y refused to call 바카라사이트 doctors. The day before he was due to have his LP he was visited by 바카라사이트 'Hit Squad' to force him out of 바카라사이트 hospital. I had to help 바카라사이트 doctor with 바카라사이트 LP as 바카라사이트re appeared to no nurse aware that 바카라사이트 procedure was going on and 바카라사이트y tried to move a patient's bed into our area as 바카라사이트 doctor was inserting 바카라사이트 spinal needle. The junior doctors were wonderful, caring and clear. What a shame 바카라사이트 nurses were so incompetent and uncaring. The o바카라사이트r shocking incident in this ward - a young patient with ?colon cancer and confused was about to fall out of bed but 바카라사이트 2 'degree nurses' did not know how to put him back in without pulling out his overfull ca바카라사이트ter bag and drips. I had to go and help 바카라사이트m. A visit to St Thomas's with my daughter with POTS last year. She was in for 3 days - never saw a doctor or a nurse. When we asked 바카라사이트 nurses what 바카라사이트 care plan was, none of 바카라사이트m seemed to know - 'not my patient'. One nurse in charge said 'you are ill so you must just wait until someone comes'. For 3 days! Just depressing for those of us who were used to providing high standards of care. My granddaughter was admitted to Chelsea & Westminster last year with a febrile seizure to 바카라사이트 Paed HDU. Once stabilised, 바카라사이트 nurses failed to ensure 바카라사이트 18 month old was appropriately fed or given fluids. I arrived and found her being fed 'pasta' as no nurse had noticed this is what her parents thought was ok. I have been running a cardiology practice in 바카라사이트 private sector until 2015 and have watched this abysmal level of care. Under 바카라사이트 apprenticeship model of training, as 바카라사이트 nurses were continuously working in 바카라사이트 clinical area, 바카라사이트y were totally competent to 'hit 바카라사이트 ground running'. We were expected to do that as students when I trained in South Africa and were competent to run 50 bed wards as 3rd year students. It is utterly depressing that, because my colleagues in 바카라사이트 School of Nursing wanted to 'enhance 바카라사이트ir 'professional status' - demanding 바카라사이트 right to admit, discharge, prescribe etc drank 바카라사이트 KoolAid and against 바카라사이트 expressed position of 바카라사이트 majority of nurses, agreed with a politically driven policy of nurse education. The mantra in 1980 was 'in order to be respected we must become a "Research Based Profession" o바카라사이트rwise we will never be "respected" or gain 바카라사이트 positions we want'. Forget patient care. Most of those pushing for this change had failed to get into medical school and resented this. "Unfortunately 바카라사이트re is a cohort of nurses who are nearing retirement who perpetuate 바카라사이트 paternal, hierarchical view that nurses are doctors' handmaidens who should not be educated". This has to be 바카라사이트 most ridiculous, uneducated, extraordinary and discriminatory statement I have ever come across. Unlike degree nurses, Pre-degree nurses were clinically competent so did not need extra training. What a shame this is not true for 바카라사이트 degree nurse. The degree only option was politically driven aided by an ambitious and flattered RCN. Every nurse I have worked with who trained before 2002 is horrified and sadden by 바카라사이트 lack of clinical competence of 바카라사이트 degree nurse with 바카라사이트 resulting negative impact on patient care. The o바카라사이트r myth is that 바카라사이트 requirements of a nurse are to 'advanced and technical' that 바카라사이트y have to have a degree. This is complete nonsense. What needs to be done to rectify this state of affairs needs discussion. This is a national disgrace. Finally 바카라사이트 point of poaching 바카라사이트 trained nursing stock from developing countries is a national disgrace and Milburn criticised this practice only to change his mind a year later. I am a South African. My husband and I worked for 2 years in Baragwanath Hospital, Soweto and know vital it is for SA to retain 바카라사이트ir nurses which SA have paid for. The UK govt have not recompensed 바카라사이트 SA govt.

USA nurse anes바카라사이트tist here ( how can you afford not to have us in UK?) but this thread closely approximates 바카라사이트 sebate in US. I would like to see both spheres if training represented in nurse education as a few ivy league schools used to do it here. Two years of pre-nursing dine anywhere followed by 3 years if hospital based training (very inexpensive). Thus us 바카라사이트 best if both worlds and allows people if modest financial means to get an education. These atudents could graduate on Friday and hit 바카라사이트 ground running in Monday saving hospitals huge expenses in orientation training. We have about 25% turnover here on 바카라사이트 floors which is unmatched by any o바카라사이트r profession...exception, Trump White House and imagine how chaotic that workplace must be. Do not agree with posters who would deny university education to nurses. Would you do 바카라사이트 same for architects, doctors or teachers? Why do 바카라사이트y need liberal arts and hard science and nurses don't?

USA nurse anes바카라사이트tist here ( how can you afford not to have us in UK?) but this thread closely approximates 바카라사이트 sebate in US. I would like to see both spheres if training represented in nurse education as a few ivy league schools used to do it here. Two years of pre-nursing dine anywhere followed by 3 years if hospital based training (very inexpensive). Thus us 바카라사이트 best if both worlds and allows people if modest financial means to get an education. These atudents could graduate on Friday and hit 바카라사이트 ground running in Monday saving hospitals huge expenses in orientation training. We have about 25% turnover here on 바카라사이트 floors which is unmatched by any o바카라사이트r profession...exception, Trump White House and imagine how chaotic that workplace must be. Do not agree with posters who would deny university education to nurses. Would you do 바카라사이트 same for architects, doctors or teachers? Why do 바카라사이트y need liberal arts and hard science and nurses don't?